tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post1830875451032772339..comments2024-03-22T13:39:55.941-07:00Comments on Math Mama Writes...: Freedom to LearnSue VanHattumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-54103230481741010212009-09-06T07:01:02.939-07:002009-09-06T07:01:02.939-07:00Cogent analysis, Maria. Of course, many of the par...Cogent analysis, Maria. Of course, many of the parents who coerce their kids because they see no other choice (sometimes that's me) will be confused. If I work full-time and have no extra money, how could I possibly do anything other than put my child in school?Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-65077215925853350172009-09-05T13:21:46.460-07:002009-09-05T13:21:46.460-07:00"We all tiptoe around this truth, that school..."We all tiptoe around this truth, that school is prison, because telling the truth makes us all seem so mean. How could all these nice people be sending their children to prison for a good share of the first 18 years of their lives?" - Children are coerced by their parents in so many situations that to single out this one institution (school) does not seem fair. I'd like to ask the broader question: "How could all these nice people be forcibly, without choice, sending their children to nannies/relatives/daycares, performing medical procedures on them, selecting food, clothing and media for them for the first 18 years of their lives?"<br /><br />That's because people aren't "nice" in this sense at all. The amount of coercions routinely going on around us is astonishing, if one cares to look. Schools are just industrial answers to this demand for systematic coercion (and yes, restriction of freedom) of kids. Schools are NOT mandatory in any state. The responsibility for any child ever being in a school is on guardians of kids who use coercion, including coercive institutions.MariaDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00769513929584082597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-10754299055234782632009-09-04T12:02:18.133-07:002009-09-04T12:02:18.133-07:00Someone on another forum asked about one of my sta...Someone on another forum asked about one of my statements. (She didn't quote me fully though...) Here's my reply:<br /><br />>I just want to ask about your comment that some children would, "use the freedom they crave in self-destructive ways".<br /><br />You are right to question me on that, but I don't know if I can explain myself well. I think everyone craves freedom. But I also think our culture is messed up in many ways, and some kids who've already been damaged will lash out. I think the school functions as a backup family in a way, and offers many kids a haven.<br /><br />If we start with a family where both parents must work to make ends meet, and neither parent reads much (no habit of enjoying it, and little time), and the TV is on because it keeps the kids quieter so the parents can get a few things taken care of, and then we add that the kids are angry about something that is not quite right in their family, I can imagine parents who are good people, struggling, and kids whowon't have the resources for learning available in their families. Kids who are focused on a peer culture that's dominated by corporate ads and attempts to be different that just play into corporate hands. I see good people who need school, or something like it, to offer their kids a space where learning is what is supposed to come first. (I guess how we see this partly depends what we're more afraid of, the government or the corporations.)<br /><br />Sometimes adults make decisions for kids. Some people may be radical enough in their unschooling philosophy to be sure this isn't necessary. Now that I'm a parent, I'm not sure of anything. I sometimes forbid things (sugar, screen time, hitting) and sometimes require things (bedtime, tooth-brushing). I'm not sure I'm right, but I've done my best to only forbid and require when it seems necessary to me. If my son has to come to the store and the library with me, is that prison? I think it was useful for Peter to call school a prison, but not completely accurate. He got people thinking (although some just reacted), but we can go deeper if we recognize that schools are imperfect but sometimes helpful.<br /><br />I'm a single parent, working full-time. I do not homeschool. My son goes to a 'freeschool' (not Sudbury, since there isn't one close), where he is required to go to 1 1/2 hours of class in the 6-hour school day. The rest of the day, he chooses what to do. If he really doesn't like going to a class, I can say we are doing it at home (it would be true, we play with math and literacy all the time), and he can get out of it. (I helped write that policy.) I don't think that would be good for him, so I'm pressing for him to go to class, but we do have that out. This school isn't exactly what I would have created, but it's so great in so many ways. Here's my fantasy, my ideal school. (If the link doesn't come though, it's at http://mathmamawrites.blogspot.com/2009/03/my-ideal-school.html.) I see I didn't mention whether kids are forced to go to any classes or not.<br /><br />If public schools were small enough, maybe they could be as flexible as my son's school. Read The Power of Their Ideas to get a sense of how schools could be really great.<br /><br />Thanks for pushing me to think this through further. :^)Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-70397422104549563962009-09-02T11:27:54.973-07:002009-09-02T11:27:54.973-07:00@Peter: I wrote this over at your blog, and then c...@Peter: I wrote this over at your blog, and then copied it here. (Hmm, I see it never posted. Strange. Copying back over there now...)<br /><br />@vlorbik: I'm still a dreamer. I'll hope it can affect policy somehow.Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-85242683724937366652009-09-02T09:39:44.335-07:002009-09-02T09:39:44.335-07:00refreshing to see such frankness
in such a mainstr...refreshing to see such frankness<br />in such a mainstream source;<br />thanks for finding this.<br /><br />here's a more-or-less-obligatory<br />(to me) reference to j.t. gatto's<br /><a href="http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm" rel="nofollow">underground history</a>.<br /><br />none of this will ever effect *policy* of course...r. r. vlorbikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02746118913980983815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-1456599049750369452009-09-02T08:42:32.213-07:002009-09-02T08:42:32.213-07:00Dear Math Mama,
Thank you for this really thoughtf...Dear Math Mama,<br />Thank you for this really thoughtful comment on my blog post. Would you be willing to post it also in the comments section of my blog? Your sentiment is something for which I have a lot of sympathy (believe it or not). I'd like others to see it and have a chance to respond, and I'd like to respond to it too in the context of others' thoughts.<br />Best wishes, -- Peter GrayPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08229446805759468602noreply@blogger.com