tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post7570476143849192717..comments2024-03-22T13:39:55.941-07:00Comments on Math Mama Writes...: Tests .... (TIMSS & the MA teacher licensing test)Sue VanHattumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-56435519913438223532009-06-09T08:16:01.579-07:002009-06-09T08:16:01.579-07:00Great post at Bridging Differences, on the New Yor...Great <a href="http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2009/06/lies_damn_lies_and_statistics.html" rel="nofollow">post at Bridging Differences</a>, on the New York state tests, and how they're manipulated.Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-18096383791104222009-06-04T16:32:48.294-07:002009-06-04T16:32:48.294-07:00Oh. I thought you were giving me/us some other lin...Oh. I thought you were giving me/us some other links. I see now they're the same ones. Anyway, I've added to the blog post. Thanks to both of you.Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-65469072365482056392009-06-04T11:34:27.308-07:002009-06-04T11:34:27.308-07:00Thanks for the link, looks good!
(He didn't f...Thanks for the link, looks good!<br /><br />(He didn't forget. The system wouldn't let him. I'll get his stuff posted as part of the blog soon.)Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-68175307431551522732009-06-04T08:07:08.456-07:002009-06-04T08:07:08.456-07:00_notices_ piece on racial equity;
ball/hill/bass.
...<a href="http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf" rel="nofollow">_notices_ piece on racial equity</a>;<br /><a href="http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/issues/fall2005/BallF05.pdf" rel="nofollow">ball/hill/bass</a>.<br />burt forgot the "http://".r. r. vlorbikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02746118913980983815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-65839628910598507972009-06-03T16:23:54.783-07:002009-06-03T16:23:54.783-07:00Hi Burt. Those links didn't work. I don't ...Hi Burt. Those links didn't work. I don't know myself how to get links to show up nicely in comments, but I could add your links to my post. I'd enjoy reading what you tried to point to.<br /><br />Email me at suevanhattum at hotmail if you want.Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-62408672044978403322009-06-03T13:17:33.011-07:002009-06-03T13:17:33.011-07:00As Colleen mentioned, Liping Ma’s study showed how...As Colleen mentioned, Liping Ma’s study showed how poorly prepared elementary school teacher are for teaching math. That is only one of so many studies showing that elementary school teachers in particular do not understand math concepts. <a href="%E2%80%9Dwww.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf%E2%80%9D" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is an article written by a mathematician who has visited elementary schools to teach math to teachers.<br />Deborah Ball and her colleagues have been studying the math knowledge required for teaching math and have been working on a test for teachers, which “significantly predicted the size of student gain scores.” <a href="%E2%80%9Dwww.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/issues/fall2005/BallF05.pdf%E2%80%9D" rel="nofollow"> Knowing Mathematics for Teaching</a> is a little dated but is a good article.Burtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-31924102323958502082009-06-02T03:43:19.656-07:002009-06-02T03:43:19.656-07:00"... more on stress".
makes sense to me:
the famou..."... more on stress".<br />makes sense to me:<br />the famous "math phobia".<br />it takes *peace of mind*<br />to study mathematics<br />(this is part of what's<br />so *hard* about it).<br /><br />certainly for "thinking" problems.<br />it's natural that these should <br />cause much the *most* stress.<br /><br />one *virtue*... and it *is* a virtue...<br />of "routine" problems is that of<br />freeing the mind from the <br />"things of the world" *without*<br />great effort. i never would've<br />believed it of myself but these days<br />i *like* to unwind with a little<br />brute-force calculation.<br /><br />of course, the downside (and it is etc);<br />one either has or has not practiced<br />"routine" problems; one knows on sight<br />what to do... or *adds one more straw*<br />to the overloaded camel's back<br />that is the testee's "peace of mind".<br /><br />as for the z-score stuff; sure.<br />i never new it till i taught the course *either*.<br />but the trend in recent decades<br />has been to push statistics <br />ever-lower into the grades.<br />i see it as a turf grab<br />by the enemies of clarity.<br /><A HREF="http://vlorbik.wordpress.com/2007/09/28/maybe-if-i-ignore-it/" REL="nofollow">paranoid rant by me</A>;<br /><A HREF="http://vlorbik.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/bring-out-number-weight-and-measure/" REL="nofollow">somebody else</A>.<br /><br />i'd rather *not* do that stuff...<br />not without first lingering lovingly<br />over the set theory and probabilty<br />and gazing deeply on the spectacular<br />Binomial Theorem... but it appears<br />to be *standard* material...r. r. vlorbikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02746118913980983815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-19830153048307540402009-05-31T08:50:24.440-07:002009-05-31T08:50:24.440-07:00So why do 72% of prospective elementary teachers f...So why do 72% of prospective elementary teachers fail a pretty reasonable test?<br /><br />It asks them to *think* on a third of the questions. And most people have turned off their 'math brains', so that's just asking too much. (Unfortunately.)<br /><br />I felt like I made significant progress with the people who took mathematical reasoning (our math for elementary teachers course) from me. I'd love to see if my former students would do any better than the average on this test.<br /><br />We have a vicious circle in our culture. Most people dislike math. Elementary teachers aren't any different than others in this regard, and they infect the kids (who loved math before they went to school). One solution would be to use math specialists from the start. Have people who love math working/playing with the kids. (And make sure the classroom teachers play too, so they can overcome their fears.)Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-24536084665151452382009-05-30T15:35:43.467-07:002009-05-30T15:35:43.467-07:00I want to think about it more, but I think I'd...I want to think about it more, but I think I'd blame the high failure rate more on stress than on abysmal skills.<br /><br />Want me to list the questions I thought would take some serious thinking? They're not the same ones I missed,btw. ;> (Those were careless errors.)<br /><br />And I see, upon re-reading, that I was referring to the (wrong) MA test, not the TIMSS, when I mentioned badly worded questions. Probably not important at this point.Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-64966618723965903192009-05-30T14:42:35.235-07:002009-05-30T14:42:35.235-07:00@Kate I would be delighted if the K-5 teachers I w...@Kate I would be delighted if the K-5 teachers I work with were proficient in math concepts through grade 8. I've seen my own teachers tell students that 5% = 0.5, that -3^2 = 9, and that 0.012 > 0.02 (because there's a 12 after the zero). Fortunately, they're not with us anymore. I would have figured a much higher failure rate based on the original test link.<br /><br />@Sue I'm sorry you have to rewrite this post. Actually, once you see the real practice test, you will have a whole new topic to explore. 75% failing the first test almost makes sense. It was very difficult; even harder than the SAT IIC math subject test. But 75% failing the second test? Yikes, that's just frightening. I'll look forward to your thoughts on this.mathplaygroundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08194204545624618033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-21070301479074946652009-05-30T13:40:09.182-07:002009-05-30T13:40:09.182-07:00@vlorbik: I didn't happen to know that 'im...@vlorbik: I didn't happen to know that 'important mathematical fact' until after I began teaching stat, just sayin'. ;><br /><br />@Colleen, Kate, and Nicole: Well, I've got egg on my face! Broken link I'll fix, but I need to rewrite my whole post. I was pointed to the test by one of the newspaper articles about it, which must have pointed wrong, because your interpretation makes total sense, Colleen. I should have researched more carefully when I saw how hard it was.<br /><br />@Kate: Sorry I didn't write down the details of the questions I thought were poorly worded. Seems they give a few different questions each time you do it. I do notice lots of stat-related questions, though the rest are easier to approach with logic. (My last version of it had 5 questions out of 20 on probability or stat.)<br /><br />I'll go play with the right test now and re-write.Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-64560836579384327762009-05-30T12:15:43.629-07:002009-05-30T12:15:43.629-07:00an important mathematical *fact*,
if you will, rat...an important mathematical *fact*,<br />if you will, rather than an important *skill*.r. r. vlorbikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02746118913980983815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-7802088374571186722009-05-30T12:08:50.182-07:002009-05-30T12:08:50.182-07:00i don't know anything about statistics
but i k...i don't know anything about statistics<br />but i know something about statistics *class*.<br /><br />and typically a student knowing<br />anything at all about normal distributions<br />(beyond "symmetric" "bell-shaped",<br />and "mean equals median") will know<br />some version of "the empirical rule".<br />also known, and *better* known, as<br />the 68-95-99.7 rule...<br /><br />and, for the pencil-and-paper crowd<br />anyway (and maybe some of the <br />all-you-need-is-"technology"<br />people too who knows), this<br />generally works out as a *good* thing.<br /><br />a few baseline *actual numbers* to hang<br />the concept of a "z-score" on. in effect,<br />one is learning the values of <br />P( -z < x < z)<br />for the z-values 1, 2, and 3 here.<br /><br />it is altogether fitting and proper that we do so.r. r. vlorbikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02746118913980983815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-76675979991309294332009-05-30T11:38:09.817-07:002009-05-30T11:38:09.817-07:00I would be quite interested to determine which tes...I would be quite interested to determine which test the prospective teachers took. There is an extreme difference in the level of difficulty between the two tests.<br /><br />NicoleJNicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06390453704400183718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-17145530788298781192009-05-30T11:20:39.084-07:002009-05-30T11:20:39.084-07:00I found the TIMSS sample to be pretty low difficul...I found the TIMSS sample to be pretty low difficulty. I didn't think any were worded particularly badly. You are right, the normal curve question was weird. <br /><br />Your link to the MA test appears to be broken!<br /><br />Colleen, I've noticed many initiatives center around irrelevant band-aids, like "use manipulatives!" "work in coorperative groups!" when really harder work needs to be done for the teachers to gain understanding. They don't need college level math, they actually need to learn the elementary concepts, not just how to proficiently apply an algorithm.Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14229054922453438248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-67230135021149260852009-05-30T09:41:57.959-07:002009-05-30T09:41:57.959-07:00Are you sure that was the test given to elementary...Are you sure that was the test given to elementary ed teachers? Here's a link to a math practice test I found for K-5 teachers: http://www.mtel.nesinc.com/PDFs/MA_FLD003_SubtestII_PRACTICE_TEST.pdf<br /><br />This test is much more on target with what an elementary school teacher needs to know. If this is similar to the actual test, then the problem is much more serious.mathplaygroundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08194204545624618033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-68509438450835767692009-05-30T08:53:26.508-07:002009-05-30T08:53:26.508-07:00Why would base 16, modular arithmetic, Mandelbrot ...Why would base 16, modular arithmetic, Mandelbrot sequences, vectors, trig derivitives, and matrices be on an elementary ed licensing test? <br /><br />There is a real disconnect between the questions on this test and what I perceive to be the math content knowledge of some elementary teachers. I've interviewed hundreds of teachers over the past 14 years. Most were uncomfortable with topics beyond those you would find in a typical grade 7 math course. Some exhibited very limited knowledge of numbers and arithmetic. <br /><br />Understanding math concepts at the elementary level was the subject of the book, Knowing and Teaching Elementary Math, by Liping Ma. The author interviewed elementary teachers about basic math concepts. She found there was a significant lack of understanding regarding place value and algorithms. While teachers could carry out the procedures, they could not explain the rationale behind the process. <br /><br />Clearly, a new test is needed. I can't see any relationship between the questions on the test and what an elementary teacher needs to know in order to be an effective math instructor of young children.mathplaygroundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08194204545624618033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5303307482158922565.post-37485991286992239492009-05-30T06:21:27.984-07:002009-05-30T06:21:27.984-07:00You need 240 points to pass the MA test. The scori...You need 240 points to pass the MA test. The scoring is pretty complicated, but that looks to me to be a bit under 75%.Sue VanHattumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237941346154683902noreply@blogger.com